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  • < Tusks and Horns >
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I really don't think anyone has said there is only sexual depravity anywhere, please read the thread again. In fact, I think what has given that impression is that the people wanting to defend the diary entry attacked the quiet request for clarification and acted like the entire forum had jumped on the bandwagon, which it did not.

All that was requested by anyone was a set of simple clear guidelines as to what the [mature] tag means and where we draw the line.

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I have a complaint! I went looking all over for this sexual depravity, and only found random ramblings about day-to-day life. I demand a full refund! I've never felt this betrayed in my life!
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Zaredd wrote:
I really don't think anyone has said there is only sexual depravity anywhere, please read the thread again


I don't think that's an expressedly helpful thing to say, Zaredd. It's a conversation, not an accusation. As Shir has said, this is to do with a line that's YET to be crossed, not what HAS been crossed. Asking people to re-read what they have already read isn't helping.

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This thread once again surprises me in the level of maturity we have here, some good posts and I especialy agree with Miraene's and Shir's posts. Some sort of specified tagging system sounds like a good solution to this if needs be but most of all I think it was worth having a conversation about this.

I don't know about others but I have a mind that loves to make up conclusions on its own and the diary section has grown a lot and maybe the general tone has changed too from what it was a year back. We've brought up the belf oriented writing before but maybe it was time we discuss if the community is alright with the big-brother like peeking into carnal lifestyles that is involved too. I won't say it's all about sex, more it's a social hierarchy built through rp and diaries, and if you're not part of that hierarchy, or don't write stuff that is a little daring or involve other peoples' characters, you are pretty much writing your own silly thing to an empty audience.

I think when you're in that position then the Diary section can look like an inviting thing to make conclusions of. I don't like the slice of life sort of writing myself and would see a character that is living the same mundane emotions about education, friends and sex as I do a boring thing to write of, so I don't. But I can see that it appeals to a lot of people and I understand relationship and sexual involvement become more important things to write of, so they do. If you involve the feeling of being a little left out with that then it's not too hard to think "These people just want to write about sex. How lowbrow"

So it was a good thing to get to read this thread and hear of opinions other people have and maybe see how much of my conclusions are truthful and how much I simply project thoughts on others. In the end I know very little about the rp inside Silvermoon and only know my own feelings of outcastiness and the stereotypes that are broadcasted in the community.

Maybe a bit too long rant and it may not give anything to think of to others but I felt like joining the conversation. Maybe I will pick up a diary again too sometime methinks.

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  • < Tusks and Horns >
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Markus wrote:

Zaredd wrote:
I really don't think anyone has said there is only sexual depravity anywhere, please read the thread again


I don't think that's an expressedly helpful thing to say, Zaredd. It's a conversation, not an accusation. As Shir has said, this is to do with a line that's YET to be crossed, not what HAS been crossed. Asking people to re-read what they have already read isn't helping.


In my opinion, Markus, it was your post that started all this. Poor Lirien did nothing but mention politely and with welcome to a newcomer that she thought this forum had a PG13 rating. You jumped down her throat like a pitbull, and caused a jumping on the bandwagon attack as though the diary's writer was being victimised when he was not. So don't tell ME about not being helpful.

I'm tired of this. I am trying foolishly to interpret each side to the other and keep things on a quiet footing. Clearly I fail. I don't even CARE about the issue, after all, I wrote some of the most explicit material on this forum (now with sadness deleted because of this situation.) I care only that people do their level best to understand one another. Having managed to do nothing but create further misunderstanding, I am leaving this thread.

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  • < Eburi Knights >
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.... k.
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Anedill wrote:
No. I like girls. But this time it's about justice.


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Markus wrote:
.... k.


I don't think that's an expressedly helpful thing to say, Markus. It's a conversation, not a series to chances to get the last word. Initiating something then implying another person's reaction is worth one letter isn't helping.

finally you're able to see the beauty, not the beast
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I would politely request that we do not let this fairly balanced discussion descend into a flame war. Thanks.

EDIT: This post was written before, but posted after Eshidu's comments above.
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  • < The Phoenix Guard >
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I really don't think there's any point in playing the blame game. Lirien was within her rights to advise Arth that perhaps his entry was pushing it and Markus was fully within his rights to disagree (if there's a post where he "jumped down her throat" it has since been removed because I can't see one). As there was no clear rules to follow or abide by either way, no one is "to blame" for this discussion coming about. All that happened was that it was brought to light that there's been no guidelines set out for "mature" writing which Markus expressed when he said he couldn't see why folks would have issue with that diary entry and not Sastri/Blight humpage which was a fair enough point. He was basically pointing out that there are no rules either way and there's a fair bit of content on the forum that contradicted Lirien's request for PG/13 boundaries - which is true.

I think Nini was just trying to express that the opening post gives the impression of an attack on those of us that post maturely. I can say that I took the same opinion (hence the clarification that all mature writers are not ERP'ers and not all [Mature] tags equate to rampant, explicit sexual content) which Rhea then explained as her perhaps not taking time to think through the terminology she was using. Important to remember that the interpretation of posts on a forum is pretty subjective. One person can take a point one way and another person can view it differently. That doesn't necessarily make one person wrong or another person right. Lacking lots of social cues makes it hard to always take a post in the tone in which it was meant.

Unfortunately, it is in the nature of diaries that people tend to only read those relating to characters they have some form of link to, written by people they are OOCly friends with or those they think they might get a mention in. That is definitely not a new issue nor is it something that can be easily tackled (you can't exactly force everyone to read every diary just to give everyone equal post counts). I, personally, read more or less every diary posted on WoWgamer but I know I'm the exception that proves the rule. I can see, however, that some folks (perhaps those that haven't been on DMF for as long) might feel discouraged by the lack of responses they receive (though, I have to say I think WoWgamers' are pretty good at encouraging new diary writers from what I've seen) and make broad generalisations about the "circle jerking" (something I've heard thrown around) nature of the forum.

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Well, everyone's been busy. Been a very interesting discussion, and I really appreciate hearing the range of views.

First up, I'm sorry if my first post appeared to be an attack on anyone. I thought I was just pondering if it might be a good idea to have a separate space for mature writing, given that different people want and expect different things of the creative work on here. Though I must say that I think having a wider range of flags would probably be a more elegant solution, as it gives people greater freedom to pick what they want to read and what they don't.

I am also sorry if people have deleted their work from the site (either voluntarily or otherwise) as a result of this conversation. I don't want people to be silenced. The whole point of bringing the subject up was to get some of the views, worries, concerns etc out in the open rather than letting them go unheard and potentially leading to resentment.

It is "fashionable" to talk about sex. Sociologically, it is a statement of sexual experience and maturity, accurate or not. And hey, it can be fun. It's not so fashionable to question this, as it's often interpreted as being the opposite of the above. However, personally, whether it's gonna give me a reputation for being boring or not, I think it is a useful conversation to have, so we can as a community think about where we want the boundaries to be (or not, as the case may be). Certainly I think that this has mostly been very productive.

I would like to add that as a result of this conversation, I have been challenging myself about my own prejudices and stereotypes. Why did I label mature diaries as being ERP, even if it was just a convenient shorthand? Okay, yes, if someone is writing about nothing other than sex, I guess it does, rightly or wrongly give the impression that they're only interested in RP that has sex in it. But more than that, to my mind at least, ERP does have a bad reputation. It brings to mind all the old stereotypes: lesbian nelfs (being played by guys, obviously), orgasmic screams being spammed into /yell (yes, I've seen that), people cybering in /s and /e right next to people trying to have "serious" RP (okay, so it may be trolling), that comic that was doing the rounds of a while back of the troll guy trying it on with a troll woman and getting nowhere, then trying the exact same with a belf and getting some immediately... you get the idea. I guess it's not a nice label, really. When mentioned among non-RPers it's a source of sniggering. Hell, when mentioned among RPers it can be a source of sniggering and catty comments. But at the end of the day it's a stereotype, and I shouldn't assume that everyone that does do it conforms to that stereotype. Obviously this stereotype can't be true everywhere. Presumably it has it's roots somewhere, but I shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush.

By applying that terminology to the diaries I can see that I was applying that same, crass, immature stereotype to them. Another brush. More tar.

I'm sorry for using the term, and I'm sorry that people felt the need to be defensive. I guess that people wanted to distance themselves from the term is telling enough. To anyone who *does* do ERP, I hope one day things will come round to the point where you're not made to feel ashamed about it and are able to shake off the stereotypes. But given S&M, LGBT and plenty of other stuff is all still viewed through a lot of stereotypes even though they are being challenged, I guess it won't be happening soon.
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