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Yeah, you probably should have. I consider my story way over the top and should the admins make the rules so, they're free to delete or censor it.
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Okay, just a quick response to some of the points that have been made since they seem to be pointed in my direction.

First up, I wasn't meaning to imply that everything that appears in the diary section has been fully RPed out. I guess in my head I was just using the labels "RP diary entry" ie one without sex etc etc, and "ERP diary entry" ie one that's largely about a character's sex life. I should have thought more before using the terminology in a post. My own fault for rushing in putting up a post before running out the door for work.

Second, and I think this is also a mistake due to a rushed post, I didn't mean to say that all the diaries are full of explicit content, I just seem to be noticing an increase in diary entries about character's sex lives across the board. Yes, some of these may be tasteful, interesting, characterful etc etc, but I do feel that it's turning up more and more. Now this is only a perception, I may well be wrong, I've not done any kind of statistical analysis. It may well have it's place, but it feels that it's getting out of proportion and we're losing sight of diary entries that don't include this, many of which are very good, but don't get the advantage of "sex sells". This isn't self-promotion, I don't give a damn if people read my diaries or not, but I worry about others, especially people who are new to the site.

There does seem to be a perception growing in certain quarters that on this server (and Silvermoon in particular) there is a lot sex going on in RP and not a lot else. I don't want to see wowgamer ending up with a reputation for being the place where people come for that.

I'm sorry if I've been grumpy about this. Not gonna scrape around and make excuses, if I've been out of line, I apologise. I don't think of myself as being prudish, and this isn't meant to be an attack on anything that's not cuddly and fluffy and made of flowers. Cuddly, fluffy flowers would either be very very boring, or just a bit strange.
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Ilathion Silverleaf wrote:
Yeah, you probably should have. I consider my story way over the top and should the admins make the rules so, they're free to delete or censor it.


*pokes* I didn't really think it needing censoring, Ila. You were experimenting with a style. you were learning about writing. It's not my place to censor that.

People learn through role play. A simple example is children playing games. As we get older we still use rp to learn, explore, grow, our games just get more... adult. The question was, is this forum the place for that, and if so, can we please clarify the way we label things so that those who do not wish to be involved can avoid it. I think Rhea has clarified that nicely.

It's only that we had only one word, [mature] to denote anything that anyone thought might be marginally worrying either violence, sex, or language, from a few mild swear words right through to this most recent sexually explicit material. So if violence, or sex, or whatever (we know my bugbears) bothers you you didn't know which [mature] tag to avoid reading.

If the Admin decides on rules that censor your story, a lot will have to go, many of mine included. All I think we are discussing here is a clear rule set.

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Erm... wow.

Okay, speaking as the guy's GM and offering my own two cents:

Egads, Sexual Tension.

People can read what they like - people can write what they like. It's up to you, you have that choice. If you like, let's age cap the mature tag which people handily write - though often it isn't mature at all. A mod can sweep in graceful wings of fire and stick a 15+ or a 18+ or in the case of Than'so's diary, Rated R for Rurder. That didn't work so well!

Markus is a damned Hugh Hefner who thinks Belore shines out of his arse - he doesn't write in grim detail regarding his sexual exploits, because he imagines his grandkids don't want to read about that when he's dead and buried. But that's the character's choice - if you want to have the Diaries of a Call Girl, then by all means do. Than'so writes about murdering rent boys in the throws of passion and eating their throats - but one smutty bit of writing by someone who took a chance and grabbed everyone's attention by writing as no-one else has found the stones to do suddenly has the forum in awe.

Silvermoon, by the by, is Silvermoon. If the Habbo Hotel clientele want to get their jiggy on, let them. Soon they'll get some coursework and pipe down. I just find it odd that Rhea would point this out - as someone who I rarely get the chance to RP with, and even then seldom in Silvermoon City. Unless you've a very quietly hidden Alt away, I'm not sure we're in the best place to discuss 'kids today, eh'.

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By saying "sex sells" I was referring to what people write into their stories as either fact or because they feels it belongs there, to spice things up, belive it or not. If one does not care what other people think about ones writings then why write in a forum like this? A blank piece of paper would be better.
Basicly I don't see a problem here, things are fine just the way they are, or maybe thats just me? Anyway, nice constructive talk here.
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I only follow a couple of diaries here, so I guess the following post should be taken in theory... Having said that, WoWgamer is becoming ever more popular (at least one new member joins every day), so we should anticipate an increase in explicit writing and start thinking about rules for about this stuff now, before it becomes a major problem, whether or not it is one already.

First of all, we need to decide what counts as mature and what doesn't. I think we can all agree that our writing can't exactly be divided into two simple categories ("safe for everyone" and "mature"). Some writing is completely kiddy-friendly, then you have the mildly mature stuff like swearing or a bit of innuendo and violence, then you move onto "extra mature" (feels like I'm talking about cheese here) such as explicit sexual descriptions or tons of gore.

Okay, we could try using a film rating system as a couple of people suggested. At first I was thinking the same thing. But then we have to take into account that films are rated differently in different countries, so maybe it's not so universal (call me nitpicky but we have to be fair to everyone). I can see some people complaining about their writing being given too high a rating (which would give it a smaller audience). You know, "Why did my story get an 18? I only described a pair of boobs!!!" Unless we set out our own list of ratings and some proper rules, there are bound to be disagreements over what rating a piece of writing deserves. If we can do that, it might work.

I think an easier way to sort this might be to just add tags in the title or in your first post, along the lines of what you'd see on the back of a DVD case:

Occasional swearing
Frequent swearing
Mild violence
Extreme violence
Moderate sex
Explicit sex

Obviously I've written these a little stuffily; I guess people would be free to write it a bit differently e.g. "Lots of swearing" or "XXX extra mature cheesy sex" or whatever they felt best described the "mature" stuff. If the author doesn't get around to tagging their work, the mods can do it. But it's easy to do and there's no censoring, no stigma, no hiding anyone's work away; just clear, accurate labels so people know what they're getting into before they read.

I think being specific is important here. Different things offend different people; some don't mind gore or swearing but would find explicitly sexual (i.e. pornographic) descriptions really distasteful. Others are the other way around, they might enjoy reading the graphic descriptions but absolutely hate gore. That's why you get situations like the one Flash described, where lots of people enjoy a gory story and then a while later lots of people are offended by explicit sexual content. It's not hypocritical, it's about everyone having their own preferences, which is why I think we need to tag things as specifically as possible.

Another issue that's cropped up is: for the extra extra mature cheddary writing, should it even be allowed on the site? If the site is meant to be PG13 overall (which is up to Jezzy I guess) then I don't think it's really right to have a section for stuff that is not PG13 that minors will read anyway. Either drop the PG13 label, or keep it and make a clear list of rules about what is allowed here and what is not.

If we are going to disallow certain things to keep the PG13 rating, I suppose following what is acceptable in-game might be a good start: quite a lot of violence/murder/gore (it's described in quests and items), swearing optional, and just a suggestion of sex. I think that setup would work pretty well for this forum since, as was already pointed out, Darknest is available for more explicitly sexual stuff, or guild forums if they accept it, and it does seem to be the sexual content that people are more concerned about.

Whether or not we allow extra mature stuff on the site, I really think authors (failing that, mods) taking a moment to label their writing is the way to go.
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Right, my turn to do the obligatory post :)

Firstly, I can say that the idea is that we are not treating this as a 'problem'. It is not a problem, it does not resemble the Friday Fanfic section of Topless Robot ;)

However a step has been taken towards a line that the mods of the site don't want to see crossed and therefore we step in now and set out clear guidelines, before the potential situation of us having lost people who dislike the turn the writing takes and those who remain then rightly complain that we took no action then why are you taking it now?

This is important. Places that head towards explicit content get a reputation. The afore-mentioned Darknest is a pretty big source for places like Topless Robot and Something Awful to rip off and laugh at. Not everyone who logs on here posts and for all we know someone might find one of these posts so hilarious that it briefly ends up in a much more public place than you ever anticipated. Need I link a certain Dwarven Hand Cannon incident? The endless screenshots of cyber from insert place here? This forum is not as private as you think.

This is the taking action to avoid that scenario. Complaints have been made and I respect the right of the people who have come to us quietly and want to remain annonymous. After all no one here wants to think their complaint might accidentally insult anyone's character and therefore upset the player. With that in mind it is no one's character or RP that would be critised here. Just that we need to keep the content at a level of explicity that is acceptable to the majority. I also don't want to make it complicated. Here is your one [Mature] tag, here are your boundaries. Frankly I could report myself for certainly pushing the boundaries on Shiryou but never actually putting a mature tag on his diary.

We are still hammering out the details, but on the whole I would expect that the eventual solution will be that we stick with what is your average 12-15 rated film. Some swearing, violence as long as it's not gratuitous, and sex on the side of alluding to and innuendo rather than anything outwardly and obviously stated. I can say that anyone who does want to head towards that level of explicitness will need to find somewhere else to post those entries as we won't be heading to NC-17 territory here.

Feel free to discuss further. All comments welcome :)

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To cover some more specific concerns.

I suspect that the main thing that has caused issue here is that there is a line between alluding to something so that you know what is meant and you can then fill in the gaps with your imagination to a degree you want to; and then there is having it spelled out to a point where you don't. Some people - and I will take my mod hat off here a moment to say that I am one of those people - are good with the former but will roll their eyes/be offended at the latter. And just because people do not RP with certain people doesn't mean they won't read their diaries out of interest. I certainly do.

The 'risque' diaries that have caused any fuss before have not done so because rather than incredibly blunt about it, they have skirted the detail or otherwise have done so in a manner that can't be taken seriously. Yes I should stay here as mod and be neutral but I will be bad here and say that Than'so is a good example as he is an absolute master of writing on subjects that skirt the lines but never cross. Yes Than'so murders rent boys and/or sleeps with them, and not necessarily in that order, but it doesn't cross the line. It's all a little American Psycho; deadly serious but in a laughable way. Also we have been 'eased' into it. The worst of his depravities are not on page 1 and byt he time we get there, we've seen them coming and we know.

As I've said before sometimes I'm surprised I'm not pulled up on my diary. I actually find the topic of Shiryou dealing with what is effectively almost the beginning of a divorce and his longing for other women - to be touched and loved - a very mature topic that could very much offend anyone who has been in either his shoes or Rachel's. If it is offending people, then let me know and I'll move those diaries somewhere else for friends to read.

Mature has a different meaning in the eyes of many people. Hence we need these guidelines.

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*three thumbs up (Image) for the last three posts :D *
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YES YOU NEED TO LINK A CERTAIN DWARVEN CANNON WHATEVER THINGIE

any way, I do think guidelines are a good thing. I don't think they are needed as of yet, but it is best to prevent things from getting out of hand, than to wait for them to get out of hand. I have looked at the first page in the diary section, and I honestly see very little mature tags there, so while I do think it is good that again, there is prevention, the tone of this thread made it seem like there was only sexual depravity in that section. Since we are a community, and we don't want people to feel excluded, I am happy that this discussion is here, but still would be careful with how things are put. I mean, I am definitely not one of the mature diary writing people, but felt a bit targeted in their stead.

But yay for the admins and them taking care of stuff, however, I still request a link :)
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